Ways to practice major minor transitions

[mpaq]

Im taking another dive through the Slow Blues Supplement course, and before I spend too much time practicing what might be potentially bad habits, I thought I'd run it by you all to get your opinions on the best approach...I know enough about Griffs style to know that if he teaches something a certain way there must be a good reason for it, even though it may initially seem less intuitive than other approaches, given the fact that there are so many ways to look at the fretboard.

(As an aside, for those of you that are discouraged by this concept my advice is to keep at it because the light bulb moment happens when you can pivot off the root notes without thinking about boxes).

When mixing the sounds, lesson 4 advocates picking a root to work with, and pair of boxes to give the major and minor sounds in EITHER the left or right facing patterns......this means overlaying different box shapes in the same place but emphasizing the same root note. For example with a 5th string root you could choose to play the right facing minor box 4 and then stay in the same place but play a different box for major...in this case that would be box 5 for the right facing pattern. This overlay requires a little mental gymnastics to get your head around in that instant you need to switch. However....
If you look at the chart on pg 38 it shows you that the minor right facing boxes correspond to the major left facing boxes and if you change your finger on the root you can pivot off that root in the either direction. You will get the same results (major and minor sounds) but with this method you only have to know one shape for both sounds.

So assuming you've decided to stay with the right facing minor boxes ( to keep it simple) it comes down to this (on a 5th string root) .... A) you can use box 4 minor right and change to box 5 in the same direction (overlayed) OR B) use box 4 minor right, and when you get back to your root, change your finger and go left with the SAME pattern or box for the major sound.

Option A is how Griff teaches it, but option B seems a lot more intuitive to me and efficient in the sense that you're forgetting about boxes and learning to pivot off the roots. You still have to know which minor right facing boxes to use on each string root, but once you know that you don't have to complicate things by memorizing which major boxes to use with which minor (ie 1&2, 4&5,2&3, 5&1,3&4 for the minor and major sounds respectively). You just use the same box pattern but in the opposite direction off the root.

So I choose option B for my practice regimen.....is there a disadvantage to this approach ?...is it just a matter of different strokes for different folks or is there a good reason that you would want to use the overlay method? Mix in the other variables (string, left facing minors) and theres a lot more to memorize....

 

[OG_Blues]

mpaq, I have also noticed what you are describing.
As to your questions, I am far from expert enough or accomplished enough to answer whether or not there is any disadvantage to it.
Maybe Griff will chime in.
I can offer these comments, thoughts, and observations however from what little practical experience I do have.
There is nothing inherently wrong with just using whatever level of knowledge one currently possesses to make music.
When one's current level of knowledge becomes second nature in your playing, it frees the mind to "meld in" and combine other concepts and knowledge in order to expand the ways the music you are making music is approached or accomplished.
I see the endless ways and means of looking at the fretboard as an iterative learning process where different approaches gradually combine over time (for me, a LONG time) into a single, more complete, composite approach.
I will never master it in the time I have left, so I have resigned myself to just enjoy whatever I can do and continue the process.
I quit trying to learn the boxes the moment I understood the concepts of playing from the roots on any string, using the left and right facing patterns, and judicious use of the every chord is I concept. Eventually, I hope to combine these techniques with known licks and be able to improvise fluently and effortlessly, but accomplishing that remains elusive for me. I am making progress however, and that is encouraging.
I know this may not actually help you except as a long winded way of encouraging you to keep putting the pieces of the puzzle together in a way that works for you, with the end result being something you can be happy with.
Tom

 

[Paleo]

Option B requires you to actually move your hand up or down 3 frets whenever you want to switch "modes".
Option A allows you to stay in the same position and play Major or minor notes in the same area. No pivoting.

Suppose you wanted to play a Major note and then the minor note right next to it.

Say the 6 to the b7.

Option B you'd have to play the first note in one direction then pivot to the other direction to hit the second.

Option A allows you to simply play the 6 and then the b7 right next to it, no sweat.

Option B requires a physical shift. Option A requires a mental shift.

Option B is fine if you were going to play in one direction for a couple of measures and then switch direction for a couple others. But you just couldn't move fast enough to switch within measures or even note to note.

For me it's just easier to learn the 5 Major scales and how to make them minor by flatting the 3,6 &7.
Then just play Major or minor from the same root in the same direction in the same position.

Check out Lesson 10 on the "Composite Blues Scale", near the end of the course. This scale, which combines the Major and minor would not be possible to play using option B.

 

[Silicon Valley Tom]

Having gone through all of this, and more, and I have my own preference. I really enjoy using the BB King and Albert King Boxes, with a few modifications along the way. As for the "Composite Boxes", it is difficult to hit a wrong note, as you have almost all of them available! As for playing anything that sounds like the Blues, that is an individual matter.

Tom

 

[BoogieMan]

I.
If you look at the chart on pg 38 it shows you that the minor right facing boxes correspond to the major left facing boxes and if you change your finger on the root you can pivot off that root in the either direction. You will get the same results (major and minor sounds) but with this method you only have to know one shape for both sounds.

So assuming you've decided to stay with the right facing minor boxes ( to keep it simple) it comes down to this (on a 5th string root) .... A) you can use box 4 minor right and change to box 5 in the same direction (overlayed) OR B) use box 4 minor right, and when you get back to your root, change your finger and go left with the SAME pattern or box for the major sound.

Option A is how Griff teaches it, but option B seems a lot more intuitive to me and efficient in the sense that you're forgetting about boxes and learning to pivot off the roots. You still have to know which minor right facing boxes to use on each string root, but once you know that you don't have to complicate things by memorizing which major boxes to use with which minor (ie 1&2, 4&5,2&3, 5&1,3&4 for the minor and major sounds respectively). You just use the same box pattern but in the opposite direction off the root.

So I choose option B for my practice regimen.....is there a disadvantage to this approach ?...is it just a matter of different strokes for different folks or is there a good reason that you would want to use the overlay method? Mix in the other variables (string, left facing minors) and theres a lot more to memorize....

I think you're referring to the "3 frets down" rule that is used by many players. You simply move down 3 frets and play the same box to change from the minor to major sound. Griff prefers the overlay method because it doesn't require a shift of his hand (see paleoblues' post above). As you say, this requires some mental gymnastics but the idea of the SBS exercises is to practice until you can do this overlay automatically without thinking about it.

 

[Paleo]

Also the "3 frets down" rule works fine with Boxes 1 & 2 because the Major root is on the 6th string in both.
You can shift other boxes, but the roots won't be "matched". (Requiring more mental gymnastics!).

 

[OG_Blues]

Personally, I never consciously use the 3 fret shift technique, I am almost always use a root note, or a target note reference point and work from there to go to "another place". I prefer moving around the neck in order to provide variation in the tonal quality that the different portions of the neck provide. At any position on the neck, ALL of the same notes are right there under you fingers. Staying in one position for a long time can get sonically boring. To me, this is one of the big benefits of using root and target notes as reference points, and working from there - you can play anywhere on the neck with this approach, independent of memorized boxes. I also prefer the composite scales as then once you are in a position, you can create any flavor of sound there.
For me, the ultimate goal is to be able to just play what I hear in my head in near real time, without regard for whether it is major, minor, or both - it's just a melody that hopefully fits the progression and sounds "right". I also know that getting there involves a step wise approach that uses a variety of different, more basic "defined techniques" or approaches such as those discussed here that ultimately meld together into a more sophisticated approach.
It's a long term process for me, but anytime I experience even an incremental bit of progress, it's encouraging.
Tom

 

[mpaq]

im with OG.

Its funny i never really thought about my option B as being the 3 frets down rule although i see now that it is...when i use the root im not moving my hand down three frets so it never really occurred to me, to be honest. Although Ive known about the 3 fret rule for some time, i never thought it was very practical...this is a better transition i guess, that accomplishes the same thing.

I really appreciate all the feedback, you've all given me much to think about as I approach this....im still at the stage where i dont really know what i dont know yet, so outlining the pros and cons of my approach is very helpful and i will be practicing both now, but with much better understanding of the limitations of my approach. At the end of the day i will do whatever i find the most comfortable...either way will put me leaps and bounds ahead of just rote memorization of the boxes. Its motivating to know that im on the right track even if it means i could be taking the longer road to get there....

 

[OG_Blues]

I know that the boxes are considered the holy grail by many, and they do serve admirably as a starting point and a means of communication.
However, their usual presentation, shown simply as patterns of dots on the neck without additional qualifying information, isn't all that useful beyond a certain point. It seems to me that most students become a "slave" to the concept of the boxes, when the real objective should be to move beyond them. At least for me, that is really what the SBS course is all about.
Tom